Whether Me-163 pilot had slowed before attacking, or if it had run out of rocket-fuel, remains a mystery. May 2003, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: CrazyD ], http://forums.bfnation.net/viewtopic.php?t=9765, http://www.mysa.com/mysanantonio/links/yeager.shtml, http://www.acepilots.com/planes/p51d_mustang.html, http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p51_10.html, (You must log in or sign up to reply here. We turned into this attack, but due to the tremendous speed of the enemy aircraft, I was unable to get my guns on him. I Gruppe of KG51 was the first fighter bomber unit equipped with the Me 262 in autumn of 1944. $21.87 $ 21. Messerschmitt Me 262, WerkNr. he shot down a Soviet MIG jet. Out of nowhere, 25 Me 262s appeared, flying over 150 miles per hour faster than they could. My research for 8th AF only has ~ 100 Me 262's Awarded (independent of either claims or actual) by 8th AF FC. Which Allied aircraft scored the most air-to-air kills against the Me Ah, we might as well let bygones be bygones and appreciate their beauty as historical relics. Bf 109 vs P-51 Mustangs - Feldgrau.net Download Free P 51 Mustang Engineering Drawings Read Pdf Free edgar schmued wikipedia today in engineering history p 51 mustang makes maiden . Me 262 Vs P-51 Mustang is published by Osprey Publishing and is available to order here. P-47 Thunderbolt was gigantic. The P-51 Mustang was developed and built because there was a need for a new fighter plane during World War II. Some people prefer the look of the P-51 over the Me 262. This was made using the World War II flight simulator IL-2 Sturmovik Great Battles series. The war against the jets intensified in November as the Luftwaffe increased its sortie rate with the Me 262. They did not intercept the jet, but instead flew towards the Me 262 and Ar 234 base at Hopsten air base. Messerschmitt Me 262-MLADG-Me262 - X-Plane.Org Software Store Discord - https://discord.gg/CVrJQ8aTwitter - Twitter.com/TJ3GamingTwitch - Twitch.com/TJ3GamingInstagram - Instagram.com/TJ3Gaming Making its operational debut in the summer of 1944, and powered by the Jumo 004 jet engine, the Me 262 outclassed anything the Allies had in terms of speed and firepower. Unlike wing-heavy Me-262, Me-163 was very agile. 1Lt Place of processing: Ireland Privacy Policy. It depends on what youre looking for. Its legacy lives on through its usage in civilian air races, military operations, and Hollywood films like Red Tails and Pearl Harbor.. VIII Fighter Command groups accumulated some impressive scores against the Messerschmitt jet fighter. in an Me 262. Hit by 12.7mm bullets: destroyed. 13:12. Not which aircraft was the best at shooting them down, which is statistically unprovable, as you rightly caution. only P-51 Mustang fighter pilot to shoot down a MiG 15. [ref: P-51 flight manual]. v ABSTRACT The purposes of this study were to trace the evolution of the North American P-51 Mustang as an escort fighter in World War Two and to enumerate the reasons why it played . The P-51 would have an easier time destroying the much less maneuverable jet since the Mustang could cut every turn the Me-262 tried to make. The Me 262 and P-51 Mustang represented the state-of-the-art in terms of design, performance and combat capability for their respective air forces. Wartime Me 262 Pilot Said He Flew Faster Than Sound So, which one is better? (#D144,938 in June 4, 1946). Galland was highly impressed by the aircraft's capabilities and speed and became an advocate or the aircraft's mass production. 22 Jets of JG7 got airborne to attack the bombers steam.JG7 claimed 7x B-17s and 1x B-24 this day, however 8th Air force losses were 3x B-17s and 1x B-24, of which 2x B-17s were lost to the ME262s, with 1x B-17 and 1x B-24 shot down by Flak. For starters, the P-51 was designed and built in America by North American Aviation, while the Me 262 was designed and manufactured in Germany by Messerschmitt. As a result, Me 262 pilots were relatively safe from the Allied fighters, as long as they did not allow themselves to get drawn into low-speed turning contests and saved their maneuvering for higher speeds. His adversary, a jet with a steel blue-gray camouflage, Lane wrote later, was piloted by 7-kill ace Leutnant (2nd Lt.) Alfred Ambs. Unfortunately for them (and fortunate for us), they didnt have many of these bad boys on hand while 1,443 were produced, only about 300 saw combat. I confirm that I want to send my data to receive news and promotions via email. The Messerschmitt M . [ref: P-51 shot down MiG-15 ?? Even the P51 Mustang, which escorted the bomber formations, would not have kept up with the Me 262. The P-51 had a well-designed cockpit that was comfortable for the pilot and provided good visibility. Compared with Allied fighters of its day, including the British jet-powered Gloster Meteor, it was much faster and . Follow. He told some great stories about aerial combat with a Me 262. Red Tails- P-51 Mustang vs Messerschmitt Me 262. All Rights Reserved. On the 24th of that month, Brown became one of three members of the 332nd Fighter Group to be credited with shooting down a Messerschmitt Me 262 jet fighter. This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Wrote Brown in his after-action report: I pulled up at him in a fifteen degree climb and fired three long bursts at him from 2,000 feet at eight oclock to him. flame come out near the right wing root. ", "On November 8, 1950, the then Capt. Aerei - Take Off - Messerschmitt ME-262.!!! On March 24, 1945, the Tuskegee Airmen flew their longest mission of the war, escorting heavy bombers to Berlin (which was farther from their base in Italy than from American airfields in England). We directly support the repository at WW2.ORG, and several other worthwhile projects that add to the historical record. Two seconds later, I saw another piece hit close to the first piece. Drew flew his P-51 P-51 Mustang vs Messerschmitt Me 262: WE FOUGHT THE ARYAN RACES to the death..WE ARE BRAVE AND STRONG.and if THEY show up . Piper PA-48 Enforcer. (Drew's assigned airplane was Detroit Miss, a P-51D-10-NA, 44-14164, marked E2 D.) Urban L. Drew joined the U.S. Army Air Corp in 1942 and trained as a P-51 fighter pilot. The anonymization works by shortening the IP address of the Users within the borders of the member states of the European Union or other countries that are members of the Agreement on the European Economic Area. Place of processing: Ireland , The First Engagement Between a P-51 and an Me 262 and the Death of Luftwaffe Ace Walter Nowotny, I confirm that I have read, consent and agree to The Aviation Geek Club. History Stack Exchange is a question and answer site for historians and history buffs. I like how he flew through the explosion with all the debris and stuff and his plane is left untouched. P-38 was a quiet comfortable plane to fly, [ref: History Channel's "Dogfights", interview of Roscoe Brown and Richard Candelaria]. Faircount Media Group. To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers. This title explores the formidable Me 262 and P-51 Mustang, two planes which represented the state-of-the-art in terms of design, performance, and combat capability for their respective air forces. The all-important climb rate for a P51D sat at 3200ft per minute whilst the Spitfire could climb at an impressive 3650ft per minute. Amazing facts about Messerschmitt Me262; The World's First Operational How good was the ME-262 really? : r/AskHistorians - reddit This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. Lastly, the Me 262 had a bit of a wildcard role it was tested as a potential interceptor for Americas flying bombs (such as the V1) and even a makeshift transport aircraft. But it was very slow and fragile. Having said that, I bet nightfighters such as the Beaufighter, Uhu and Black Widow got some pretty impressive ratios; I don't believe any P-61 was lost to enemy aircraft. aircraft, which blew up just as it lifted off the ground. Im sure that more Me 262s were shot down because the ideology was to get the Mes in landing when they were slow and did not turn well, called "rat catching". This style emphasised good manoeuvrability and turning radius, which fighters such as the Spitfire, BF-109, Yak-3 etc had in spades. Today, the P-51 continues to fly in air shows as a symbol of American military prowess and talent in aircraft design. As you can imagine, that was a scary sight as Me 262s were kept top secret and until then not many . The P-51 is best known for its long-range escort duty, while the Me 262 was a significant threat to Allied forces. Other armament of later models included the following (some trialed, some not): 2 x 550lb SC250/SD250 bombs under forward fuselage. During March, Me 262 fighter units delivered large scale attacks on Allied bomber formations. Very good article, one that needs to be repeated again and again. Let's find out! Bf-109 vs P-38 a6m-zero. Me-262's nose was packed with large cannons and machine guns for destroying bombers, Shopping Cart: 0 item(s) / $0 . You are at a gateway to WWII discussion, research, exploration, & analysis. Although innovative in 1935, by 1943, Me-109 was out-classed. The Tempest was very fast and could almost keep up with the jets on landing. To the untrained eye, both the P-51 Mustang and the Me 262 may look like WWII-era fighter planes. he took a lucky shot at them.'". swooped down. Download Free P 51 Mustang Engineering Drawings Read Pdf Free - cuc was just two P-51H fuselages welded together, wrong, In fact, the Mustang would prove to be the The words of general Ion Dobran, a former Romanian Bf . 'This was unusual because of the speed differences between The six .50-caliber M2 machine guns of Brown's P-51 had torn the German jet fighter apart. Several things make the Me 262 better than the P-51. that first appeared in mid-1930s, first of which was Me-109. its radiator inlet/outlet provided net thrust, and its streamlined airframe had extremely low drag. The Messerschmitt Me 262, nicknamed Schwalbe or swallow, was a force to be reckoned with in the skies during World War II. Google Analytics is a web analytics service provided by Google Ireland Limited ("Google"). Me 262 & P-51B, Revell 03711 (2020) - Scalemates was contrived by Lucas for drama, but in reality, would've been stupid. 450mph and the jet aircraft could not have been going over 200mph. Hope you enjoy! Drew recounted: I had started shooting from about 60 In that month, the Messerschmitt Me 262 began to appear in combat. Though ultimately, it was too little too late, the unmistakable roar of its engines striking fear into Allied troops as they raced through the skies was all the encouragement Nazi leaders needed to push forward with its development and construction. P-51 Mustang vs. Messerschmitt Me-262 - Which WWII fighter was better? Messerschmitt Me 262/Bf109 vs P-51 Mustang War Thunder - YouTube 0:00 / 3:55 Messerschmitt Me 262/Bf109 vs P-51 Mustang War Thunder Kimchan7 27.8K subscribers. out. This hybrid combination proved successful as the Mustang became one of the best fighters on both sides of the Atlantic and helped turn the tide in favor of the Allies during World War II. 111711, Wright Field (1945) PVT.Snafu. Though if only counting the Me-262 shot down in actual combat then the kill/loss figure rises dramatically. but between these two planes the P-51s were ordered to make tight turns that the Me-262s could not do, I think. their respective air forces. The Mustang was actually in a better position to defend itself in a dogfight with an Me 262 than it was able to fend off Me 262 attacks on bombers. How the Mustang trampled the Luftwaffe: the role of the P-51 in the Main difference was size: Spitfire small, Mustang large. 262s led by ace Hauptmann Georg-Peter Eder prepared to take off from Achmer to Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers. It is believed that this is the first Jet propelled aircraft to be destroyed by the RAF or RCAF fighters. All of a sudden at nine oclock I saw these streaks. It also acted as a ground attack bomber, capable of inflicting significant damage on enemy troops and equipment. As told by Robert Forsyth in his book Me 262 Vs P-51 Mustang, since August 1944, the USAAF had been aware that the Luftwaffe had started to deploy the Me 262 in small numbers over the Western Front in both the fighter and bomber roles. Force Service in 1950 at the onset of the Korean Conflict. The Me 262 was nearly 100 mph faster than the P-51D, which put the Mustang at a distinct disadvantage. via Asisbiz This would allow pilots such as Franz Schall to shoot down a score of Allied aircraft, and Schall himself shot down 17 enemy fighters including 10 P-51s. Spitfire was lighter, climbed faster, more maneuverable at lower speeds. The P-51 is a purebred fighter, agile and fast. mission of any strength was not mounted until the 7th, when a formation of Me This is because the brushless setup is not working very hard compared to the brushed motor. Blitz VI. Discussion in 'Aircraft' started by Sinster, May 7, 2003. [ref: History Channel's "Dogfights", interview of Roscoe Brown and Richard Candelaria], [ref: 359th Fighter Group by Jack H. Smith], "Mr. Yingling is a World War II veteran of the Navy and began his Air Siegfried Schubert claimed one B-17 of the 92nd Bomb Group (Lt. Koehler piloting) damaged and another (42-97571 of of the 457th Bomb Group, Lt. Winifred Pugh piloting) destroyed. It definitely didn't help when at one point, a pilot took four 30mm shells and was still intact after. Over Western Europe there wasn't such a discrepancy in pilot training or aircraft performance even at the end of the war. Messerschmitt Me262 A-1a/Jabo (Werknummer 170312) of I./KG 51 photographed on 27th. Spitfire had same engine, but despite being smaller, was slower than Mustang. I think the battles of Layette Gulf and Philippine Sea must seriously boost the Hellcat's ratio as by this time the aircraft it faced were largely outdated and flown by inexperienced pilots. because its jet engines provided far less acceleration than a propeller Not only did it blow past the competition, literally (with a top speed of 190 kilometers per hour faster than the North American P-51 Mustang), but it also gave the faltering German Luftwaffe a brief moment of superiority that they hadnt experienced in quite some time. The African-American airmen had long ago proven that they could fly and fight, and that they could escort bombers, but the battle in which they bagged three German jets clinched the deal. The P51s iconic design features sleek lines and a distinctive shark mouth painted on the nose, making it truly stand out among its contemporaries. Many escorting P-51 pilots shot down Me-262s by simply doing a Split-S maneuver The P-51 Mustang and the Messerschmitt Me-262 were two of the most advanced fighters to see air combat in World War II. Me 262 vs P-51 Mustang: Europe 1944-45 - Barnes & Noble The only Me-163 gun-camera film known to exist. Most enemy jet contacts up until October 1944 had been with the rocket-powered Me 163. Footage courtesy of Bill Jaskelainen, Webmaster of 339th Fighter Group Website http://www.339thfg.com/On March 20th, 1945, 451 bombers and 355 fighters of the 8th Air Force were sent to bomb the shipyard, dock facilities and an oil refinery in Hamburg. koreanwar.org: Robert F. Dorr an equal footing, despite the differences in powerplant and top speed. Red Tails: P-51 Mustang vs Messerschmitt Me 262 Davo De Gondolin 21.5K subscribers Subscribe 81K Share 9.9M views 8 years ago Combate Areo entre los Red Tails y la Luftwaffe Pelicula: Red Tails. However, as with other turbojet engines at the time, the Me 262's engines did not provide sufficient thrust at low air speeds and throttle response was slow, meaning in certain circumstances such as takeoff and landing, the aircraft became a vulnerable target. OPTIONAL: External Bomb load of up to 1,200lb. However, the availability of both machines and trained pilots was becoming an insurmountable problem for the Luftwaffe. The initial design of what would become the Me 262 . Learn more about Stack Overflow the company, and our products. He joined the 361st Fighter Group in . [ref: P-51 shot down MiG-15 ?? During the war, the P-51 established a reputation as a fierce air-to-air combat fighter and as an aircraft capable of blasting ships, trains, and enemy targets in Western Europe. Somersault-while-firing trick was actually done by Richard Candelaria of another USAAF squadron Almost immediately, the pilot bailed out from about 24,500 feet. OPTIONAL: External Bombload of up to 1,200lbs. I caught up with Messerschmitt Me 262 Messerschmitt Me 262 A-1a Wehrmacht Luftwaffe (German Air Force 1935-1945) 111711 (Hans Fay) May 1945 World War 2 - Frankfurt Silver. Bf-109 vs Zero This Google Analytics integration anonymizes your IP address. The Me 262 destroyed, Werk-Nr 170093 was flown by Hauptman Hans Christoff Buttmann of 3./KG 51. Top speed of Me-163 was 600MPH. I was at 17,000 feet when I broke off the encounter., A piece of the plane, either the canopy or one of the jet orifices, flew off. 2 x 20mm Cannons (in addition to existing 4 x 30mm cannons) 24 x Air-to-Air Unguided High-Explosive Rockets. Roscoe Brown left the military for pursuits in the academic world but remains active in veterans affairs and civil rights. Only in exceptional cases, the IP address will be sent to Google's servers and shortened within the United States. [ref: Roscoe Brown, Candelaria], P-51 vs Me 262: Data Comparison - aerocorner.com janua genova. Feb 1, 2010 Thread starter #7 Zniperguy114 Airman 67 0 flying 170 missions in a P-51 Mustang, a piston-engine plane in which Enemy jets forced to stay away, ironically, was goal of escorting Mustangs. the east-west runway and the taxiing ship got into position for a formation The P-51D Mustang? But in reality, they couldnt be more different. (Air Force af.mil), P-51 shot down MiG-15 ?? The aim was to attack jets on their landing approach, when they were at their most vulnerable, travelling slowly, with flaps down and incapable of rapid acceleration. May 2003, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: CrazyD ], [ 07. (LA Times)] P 51 Mustang's guard the bombers, Their crews call 'our little friends'. Messerschmitt ME 262 - Die Wartung [Maintenance] (1944 . 'He They shot down 12 bombers and one fighter for the loss of three Me 262s. . This title explores the formidable Me 262 and P-51 Mustang, two planes which represented the state-of-the-art in terms of design, performance, and combat capability for their respective air forces. he was awarded a medal, but fact was kept off official records since MiG-15 pilot seemed to be Russian. Red Tails- P-51 Mustang vs Messerschmitt Me 262. On 7 October two were shot down on takeoff by Lieutenant Urban L. Drew of the USAAF, flying a P-51 Mustang. "He [Col. Joseph Rogers] more than made up for his lack of combat in the Korean War -- ), North American P-51H Mustang by David McLaren, Pilot Training Manual for the P-51 Mustang, video: "Eighth Air Force Fighter Combat vs ME-163 Rocket-Propelled and ME-162 Jet-Propelled Aircraft", P-51 shot down MiG-15 ?? Oberleutnant Bley crashed his aircraft, although he was able to escape. P-51 vs Bf-109 P-51 vs Bf-109 Airplanes armament and equipment 4 x 20mm long-barrel Hispano-Suiza cannons in wings, 2 x 12.7mm machine guns in nose 4 x 12.7mm machine guns in wingsP-51D: 6 x .50 cal machine guns in wings Up to 1,000 lbs (454kg) of bombs, rockets or fuel droptanks. Whether youre talking about aesthetics or pure aerial prowess, its easy to see why the P51 Mustang will continue to soar through the skies for years. Finally, the P51 was also used for reconnaissance missions, gathering intelligence through photography and radio communication. La Mustang, une icne mcanique. One of Browns fellow airmen, Capt. jets could be somewhat offset by the much tighter turning radius of In 1969, Honduras and El Salvador had a brief air-war fought between Mustangs and Corsairs. Lets take a look. The A-2a 'Sturmvogel' had only two 30mm autocannons but could carry up to 1,000 kilograms of bombs. "Chuck" Yeager (double ace) : Returning from an escort mission, after get. had more drag caused by stub fuselage for its cockpit. (conservapedia.com)] The best answers are voted up and rise to the top, Not the answer you're looking for? Site design / logo 2023 Stack Exchange Inc; user contributions licensed under CC BY-SA. 4 x 20mm long-barrel Hispano-Suiza cannons in wings. straight through the flames and scattering debris of his victim: Just as I passed him I saw a sheet of The first successful flight of a jet Me-262 occurred on the 18th of July, 1942. say no type of Mustang ever scored a MiG-15 kill in Korea, but Mustang pilots Maj. John Yingling and Col. Joseph Rogers claim they shot down MiG-15s. 1,000ft. First, it was a capable fighter plane, able to engage in aerial combat with enemy aircraft and support Allied bombers. The squadron landed at 1508.'. Coast Air Museum in Santa Rosa and an old friend of Col. Rogers. Tuskegee Airmen Edward C. Gleed (left) adjusts an auxiliary fuel tank on the wing of a P-51 Mustang, Ramitelli, Italy, ca. but before being deployed in Europe, slower P-51D Mustangs had succeeded in vanquishing Me-262s. defensive tactics were applied, with very precise timing of each Yeager was one of four double aces, taking down the ME-262 as it landed perhaps not "sporting," he acknowledged, but one sure-fire way to drop the revolutionary jet. But there's one area where the P-51 shines: range. Google uses the Personal Data collected to track and examine the use of this Application, compile reports on its activities and share them with other services developed by Google. Not really, the P-51D Mustang was certainly a good fighter. since he drew the first drawing of the Twin Mustang with which he was awarded a US patent ' There had been a scandalous shortage of 110-gallon auxiliary fuel tanks at Ramitelli, which resourceful maintainers had resolved by both hook and crook, and now those teardrop-shaped fuel tanks, each worth the price of a new Chevrolet sedan, went tumbling into the void. The renowned fighter ace of World War II, General Adolf Galland took his first flight in a Messerschmitt Me262 in ay of 1943. The P-47 Thunderbolt? The final mass-produced version of the Bf 109, the K model, which entered service in the autumn of 1944, had a maximum speed of 452 miles (727 km) per hour and a ceiling of 41,000 feet (12,500 metres). It just fought differently. On Internet, a reference to book "P-51 Mustang: From 1940 to 1980" Google may use your Personal Data to contextualize and personalize ads in its advertising network.